“Let’s talk perfume” round table – Sultan Pasha, Elena Cvjetković and the visitors
The round table highlights, and the real, magical soul of niche emerged from sharing, smelling, telling and being listened to
The Art Niche Expo 2025 round table, moderated by Elena Cvjetković, featured Sultan Pasha and the audience itself, and wasn’t just another presentation of the new brand or just a meet-up with the renowned perfumer. It exposed the different facets of niche perfumery to its human and delicate core, and touched on topics vital to its future, such as authenticity, collaboration, and speaking up.
Iva Mirisna
19 min.
15/06/2025
While passing on the information from the round table held on the Day 2 of Art Niche Expo 2025, I’m trying to convey my text in a way that preserves the magic and feels as close as reasonably possible to the amazing interpersonal exchange.
There is nothing to add.
And there was nothing to drop out, either.
I would like to express my sincere gratitude to the participants of the roundtable, particularly the young people who spoke up.
As it is with perfumes, each one of the speakers was the ultimate ingredient that brought this story to life.
I sensed their reactions on my skin – both the silent ones and the verbal ones – and they gave me goosebumps.
So did some of Sultan Pasha’s perfumes.
So did the welcoming reassurance Elena Cvjetković attentively provided to the young audience, as well as to each young speaker.
So did the endearing selflessness of the special guests – Anjam Halding from Accolade and Danu Seth-Fyr, the renowned perfume writer – who readily jumped in as a logistics.
FROM THE BEGINNINGS
Elena Cvjetković
- Sultan Pasha, dear old friend, is a gentleman based in the UK, and now, and this year, he is launching his first line of perfumes. Sultan Pasha, would you like to add something personal about yourself?
Sultan Pasha
- Yes, so for me it’s been a very long journey. As quite few have known I started creating perfumes in 2013. So that’s roughly 12-13 years ago.
My speciality has always been oil perfumes, because at one point, around 2009-2010, I was blown away by some of the oils produced by Amouage. Yes, so Amouage Tributes, Asrar, Homage, these were to me like masterpieces.
I remember when I first smelled them, I was blown away. And at the same time, I was smelling small amounts of materials. Let’s say actual, rose absolutes, and rose essential oils from different species, such as rose damascena and rose centifolia, Rosa Alba, as well as actually smelling tobacco absolutes, frankincense essential oil, and frankincense resin. I realised how, for example, when I was smelling Tribute, I became aware of its structure. Straight away, I was thinking: “Let me see if I can do something similar…” So I started experimenting.
I realised that when it comes to perfumery, it’s a fine balancing act.
It’s just like when a Michelin-starred chef cooks or serves fine dining. He or she chooses each ingredient very, very carefully and balances each one of the ingredients. Fine-tunes them and also tries to add them in different stages.
So, when I realised that the same technique or methodology is applied in perfumery, that’s when it started, in 2013. And since then, once I launched the oils, I’ve been driven crazy by all my patrons worldwide. When will I launch the spray perfumes?
I love to do oils. But praise to God Almighty, in 2019, Christian Carbonnel and I became very good friends. Prior to that, I was having difficulty finding a compounding house.
A compounding house is essentially a company that provides materials and an extensive palette for perfumers to use in creating perfumes. I couldn’t find a company that had the right type of palette. All their palettes were very modern, too modern for my taste.
My taste, as Elena will know, is very classical. I love classical perfumery. I’m a big fan of…
Elena Cvjetković
- … and a collector of vintages…
Sultan Pasha
- Yeah, I’ve been collecting perfumes for many, many years. A couple of thousand perfumes, mainly vintage. However, the way I view my collection is similar to how a person would collect a library of books. They will collect old manuscripts or first-edition novels, for example. But unlike the novels, perfumes are ephemeral. They’re constantly changing.
For me, each of the pieces was like a book, but I wasn’t reading with my eyes; I was reading with my nose. Through my nose, I can detect the structure. As a result, I have a better understanding of the molecules used in perfumery. I have an understanding of how and where each molecule is placed to create a specific type of effect.
As a kid, I was always fascinated with chemistry, and I studied biochemistry until I was in my 20s.
However, to support my family, I entered the banking industry and became a banker. It depressed me to bits.
I hated it, but I did it for 10 years of my life to support the family.
In the meantime, while I was working at the bank, I would carry little bottles and vials in my pocket every day. The bottles would contain oils or raw materials used in perfumery that I would buy tiny amounts of with the little money I had back then. Or sometimes it would contain essential oils, such as Haitian vetiver oil or Javanese vetiver oil. And I thought: why on earth is the Javanese oil smelling like smoke? So intense. Why is the Haitian oil smelling so nutty and sweet? As a result, I learnt a regional variation and difference in cultivars.
So, yeah, I’d be taking these with me to work. And my work colleagues would be like, ‘Oh my God, get away from us with those smelly bottles.’
But my manager at that time was very kind. She was saying: “That’s all right, Sultan, you carry on doing what you’re doing because you’re a good salesman. If it brings you peace and causes no harm, bring these bottles and do what you need to.” She was right as smelling those vials was my only source of peace and solace working in that environment other than rushing to the disabled toilets with a cushion to scream in to out of sheer rage and frustration.
Eventually, in 2010, 2011 I became very ill because I was forcing myself to do the job that I don’t enjoy. Luckily, I was given time off from work. And it was during this time off, with the little money I had, that I continued to buy more samples of essential oils. I started investing a lot more in, say, shops like Perfume Apprentice or Hermitage Oils. There was also Eden Botanicals at that time.
And, you know, at that time I started thinking: “Right, okay, Sultan, you’re a banker. You hate this job. What are you doing? But you’re very good in chemistry. You’re a science nerd…. Why don’t you do something related to it?”. And I was doing that while I was playing with one of these vials filled with essential oil in my hand. And then – boom! It came to my head: “Try and see if you can make a perfume…”
- My first successful experiment was actually a composition that I made for my children’s mother to celebrate our wedding day.
I call it Shadi. Shadi means „wedding “in Sanskrit. I remember when I first made it, I let her wear it. She was like: „You didn’t make this. Where did you buy this from? It smells expensive. “, and I said: “No, I made it”. From that point onwards, I followed the same methodology for all my creations.
But the very first one I made was disgusting. It was really, really bad, absolutely awful. I was trying to create a rose. It smelt too metallic as I overdosed on the rose oxide.
So anyway, when I met Christian (Chris Maurice), I was blown away. His lab and the materials blew me away; they were truly classical. I thought: “Yes, this is it!” This is home now on for me. And then…things happened. Everything happened.
So I’ll start with…
Elena Cvjetković
- …. No, no, no. We won’t start just yet!
Sultan will not be the first to talk about each one of these!
The perfumes are usually presented with you listening to a brand manager, the brand owner, or the perfumer talking. Sultan can easily talk about his perfumes for hours…
But, rather than that, we want to do it the other way around: we will let you smell them first. Feel them first. And then, you tell me something about what you smelled…
WHY “LET’S TALK PERFUMES”
Elena Cvjetković
- We all seem to find it really difficult to openly discuss perfume, either here or at larger conventions.
It is sometimes very hard, I understand, to translate your thoughts and feelings into words and descriptions. That’s why places like this and talking to people like Sultan are very useful for learning how to express yourself, convey what you feel, and articulate what you smell.
Thanks to Flavius, who organised such a wonderful event, a truly niche one, we have a great opportunity to talk about perfume.
It’s necessary to discuss it, exchange opinions, and listen to perfumers, producers, and one another. We can learn a great deal from this exchange. You’ll probably speak differently from the perfumer or a compounding company, but that’s the beauty of it, and we must talk.
- Thanks to the Greeks, who believed that the olfactory sense was something for animals, not humans, children studied only art, music, painting, and sculpture, but nothing related to the olfactory sense. This is the same today. In schools, we and our children painted, we had art classes, and we listened to music and had musical education, but we never learned anything related to olfactory experiences.
Also – now it seems ages ago – perfumes were launched one per year and considered a somewhat intimate thing. You kept your thoughts to yourself. Only with the growth of bloggers, perfume critics, and writers did things start to roll up and spread.
Talking about perfumes suddenly became a thing: people started to share their thoughts.
Then came YouTube. Then came Instagram. Then came the influencers. Then came TikTok lately. And content creators. Now, everybody is talking about perfume. Does everybody know what they’re talking about? Well, we can discuss that. But, as long as we are being authentic about it, it’s beautiful.
You can all recognise the authenticity even in perfume brands:
Take, say, small niche perfume brands – you can instantly connect and recognise who’s authentic. Because that’s the base of the whole niche. To be authentic. To be creative. To represent yourself through your creations in a way. To give yourself to the world.
So, what I wanted to do today was to encourage you to talk about perfume.
We’re trying to inspire you to be creative and free to speak up about what you smell and feel…
SMELLING, TELLING AND BEING LISTENED TO
- Among yourselves, you surely tell when you smell something: I smell this here, I smell that there, that’s good, that’s bad, that smells so great. Or: that isn’t so good and could be better. Let’s not fall under some served concepts. Don’t think in standard descriptions, like, this smells like, I don’t know, amber. Yeah, it does smell like amber. But, please, tell me what it makes you feel or remind you of. Find your own voice and words about it. Then we’ll discuss the pyramid and its structure. Okay?
Thebes
The speakers
- That’s definitely lavender. I really like that with lavender.
- Could I have a go? … This is absolutely my favourite from the whole brand. It has such a classical dry feeling, and it envelops me in a very deep-like chamber, sort of made out of bricks.
And it’s very dusty in the opening, especially, and what I like is that I sense whatever in it, but I have never quite smelled anything like this, because it’s made in such a dry way. - I feel like it’s like a time machine, going to a different part of time, being antiquated. That’s the feeling I get.
- So in terms of a perfume, it’s something old, but in a good way, like something that’s been preserved.
Sultan Pasha
- Regarding Thebes, the idea first came to me in 2015. I was in the Champs-Élysées, the head office of Guerlain. They have a huge historical collection. In those days, we were allowed to arrange a workshop where we could select old perfumes from their catalogue. The perfume that I was really looking forward to trying was a famous perfume called Djedi, created in 1926. This was created four years after the grand opening of the tomb of Tutankhamen in 1923, by Howard Carter. And the legend goes that the perfumer, I believe he was Jacques Guerlain, went in there after the tomb was opened. And he wanted to capture the sense and the feeling that Carter experienced.
Djedi was discontinued soon, I believe in the early to late 1950s…. I guess it was too ahead for its time. Anyway, regarding me, when I first smelled Djedi in the boutique, I was just silent. I was just enamoured by it. I wanted it. I wanted to have it. I was simply obsessed by it! For many, many years since then, I have been collecting samples of this actual perfume and trying to recreate it.
In Thebes, I tried to capture the same feeling I had in the Guerlain boutique, what I smelled, and what I experienced. That immense dryness, the aridness of the vetiver. That wonderful feeling of calm and stillness….no other perfume ever made feel or experience this want and need for total introspection and introversion…. For a fleeting ephemeral moment, I felt like a master general from the past…I felt like Napoleon…. I imagined if there was one perfume he would be wearing when planning and strategising a grand plan for war it would be this! It’s solemnity at its best!
There is this very unusual humming base. I’m not sure if you feel it. It’s almost fizzy. But it’s fizzing with dryness. Djedi was actually using a very famous base from a company called Synarome. This base is made from labdanum and is kown as Ambrarome, and was first create in 1925. I believe Djedi was one of the first perfumes to use this material, and as a result, it was a very novel perfume.
So, when I smelled Djedi, it taught me a lot about how to use this material, ambarone. Because when I first smelled it, I was kind of disgusted, I was like: “This is really weird”.
It literally smelled like dried leather. However, when mixed with vetiver, it has an interesting effect, as you can feel on the blotters.
In Thebes, what you’re smelling at the top is a lot of brightness. There are aldehydes present, as well as bergamot. Then you have florals such as jasmine, rose, and muguet. Muget is the clean element that you feel in the perfume.
And then, in the middle, you have orris mixed with some animalics.
In the base, you have vetiver again, with orris and amber. It’s quite complex, it’s not the traditional top-middle-base pyramid as you imagine.
With Thebes, it is pyramids within pyramids. So, imagine a triangle with smaller triangles inside. It is a play of different accords. It’s fine interplay of contrasts between light and darkness, cleanliness with dirtiness ….
Joyeux
The speakers
- This one fills the whole space.
- Sparkly feeling. That’s emotions.
- A glowing light sort of just jumping in your face. Yep.
- – Ah, that’s a cool description!
- I sort of get a lemon-grassy feeling.
- Herbal meals.
- – Herbal meals. Yep. And also citrus.
- Dancing barefoot. Touching the grass with your bare skin, lying on it. It’s that joyfulness of freedom. Oh, that’s beautiful. With the light, with the heat, with the warmth. Touching your skin.
- – I felt this in the summer garden when I watered the plants. It always smells like a big thank you, arising from the bushes…
- Ginger?
- – Oh, that’s possibly coming from the verbena. From verbena, yeah. (Sultan)
Sultan Pasha
- I made Joyeux in winter. London was being so cold and wet most of the time. I first started working on it in 2019 or 2020. I wanted something to cheer me up, so I started creating something that was very happy and joyous, that reminds me of not cold but warm weather. I was literally picturing myself standing in Provence, surrounded by sunshine, lavender, and the hot earth beneath my feet. Memories like that made me very, very happy.
Also, another inspiration for Joyeux was Fougere Royale by Houbigant. The original Fougere Royale by Houbigant is not like what you smell right now, what’s currently available in the market. The original is very warm due to its high coumarin. Of course, you can’t use coumarin in a modern perfumery right now and understandably so.
I studied Fougere Royale, the way it was structured, as I was trying to create the most important part of Joyeux. I wanted to get the base absolutely perfect and tried to use materials that smell like coumarin, but which are not restricted and could be used happily and safely. So, I tried to recreate the base as closely as possible to the one used in Fougere Royale.
There is an interesting effect in there. It smells like oak moss, but there is zero oak moss present. Luckily, through many experiments, I found that – I’ll just say it out openly, I don’t like secrets anyway – instead of using oak moss, I can use seaweed.
The speaker
- So, seaweed is a substitute here!
Sultan Pasha
- Exactly. Seaweed has that saltiness and also that inky darkness found in oak moss. It’s not as heavily regulated as oak moss. So the seaweed is given that salty, almost resinous core right at the base.
That’s alongside classical leather bases, such as I.B.Q, Isobutyl Quinoline. These are materials that are usually found in classical perfumery like Mitsouko and the original Bandit by Robert Piguet. And then I played around with the base and found the ultimate lavender.
I wanted to use a really extraordinary lavender. When it comes to lavender, there are only two products generally available on the market: essential oil and the absolute. However, there is also a third form – enfleurage – which is even rarer.
Enfleurage is a difficult, time-consuming process where the live flowers are laid down on cloth covered in fat. And then, once the flower is nearly dead, this fat is scraped off, reapplied again and again, and then distilled. This was the second key material for Joyeux. And that’s why it gives it this really alive feeling.
Elena Cvjetković
- You can test it later, whoever wants to!
Irisoir
The speakers
- Elegant. It’s supremely elegant. It’s textural. It’s like silk, suede, anything that’s going to touch your skin, like a second skin. Beautiful. There is an exhibition in Paris at the moment of Worth Couture. Beautiful gowns from Worth. And I can imagine these full-length gloves next to the skin. It’s classically elegant but modern at the same time. It’s just beautiful.
- Confident. Very confident.
Sultan Pasha
- With Irisoir, just as the name suggests, I envisioned an iris dancing around various materials. What’s happening here: you have iris essential oil, iris butter, with violet, carnation, clove, sandalwood, touch of vetiver, and of course, peach. The peach is what is giving it that fruity effect that you’re feeling.
So, the idea behind this was to envision my ideal woman, one who embodies a sense of elegance and flamboyance. A dream woman who has everything she needs, that’s it.
I also wear Irisoir, and I like to wear it to feel flamboyant and make my presence felt. It oozes with confidence …. has no confidence issues whatsoever, just the power of walking through.
I’m not sure if you feel that, but there’s a hint of tuberose in there as well. The tuberose has an interesting effect that complements the peach. Our skin reacts really well to it. Irisoir achieves a perfect synergy with the scents of tuberose and peach, here achieved using C14, a molecule used to create this effect. And in combination, these two together make the skin come alive even more so.
The speaker
- … which is maybe why it feels like a second skin. It melts so closely to our human skin.
Elena Cvjetković
- Uh-huh. So, you know, I’ve said it a number of times: when it comes to perfumes, any perfumes, you, the wearer, are literally the final ingredient. So, you complete the perfume. So, if the perfume smells bad on you, it literally could be because of your skin chemistry. If it smells great on you, it may be due to your skin chemistry.
So, yeah, for me, with Irissoire, it literally comes alive on the skin. It hungers for human skin. That sounds very morbid, but… It wants to skin you alive.
- So, last but not least, Quintessentially Amber…. Okay, so we have three amber lovers here, all those laughing. Oh – four! Okay then, amber lovers, do tell me…
Quintessentially Amber
The speakers
- Comfortable.
- It’s just all the different angles.
- Letting yourself go…
- Yesterday I smelled a perfume. I get that warmth of the real ambergris. And that’s why it’s standing out to me. Because that felt like a flow of warmth.
The real ambergris is a material that I have smelled in only two perfumes, as it’s very rare. I think it’s banned in higher quantities... - – It’s not that, exactly. It’s meant to harvest. The way it works is that you’re not allowed to, of course, kill the sperm whale to collect the material. But if you find it floating or lying around the beach, take it. Good luck. And sell it. (Sultan)
- It’s an immersive opulence...
- – … I like that term. It’s like dying in layers. Immersive opulence.
- Okay, thank you. And it’s indulgence. It’s like going to a spa and treating yourself.
- – I think I’ll use that term somewhere. I’ll put it in somewhere. Yeah.
Sultan Pasha
- So, amber is a very classical material and such a wide field. It’s not just French. I guess, in terms of the French, they refined it, maybe, perhaps.
But to be honest, you know, there is a huge difference between the Middle Eastern style of amber to the French style of amber. Also, if you were to go to the Far East, they also have their own type of amber, as well.
Ambers are all very different as it’s usually a melange… a melange of materials specific to each country…:
You have the Middle Eastern style, also known as Middle Eastern Indian style, which is called Shamamah. This style is based around sandalwood, spices, and resins like labdanum, frankincense, and myrrh. Then you have the French style, also known as the Occidental style. The Occidental style is more labdanum with benzoin or even styrax, accompanied by vanilla and bergamot. There is a huge difference as you move through the nations.
Another thing about amber is that you also have the highly coveted, almost mythical, ambergris, which comes from the whale. When you hold ambergris and smell it, each piece is very different: some are very, very animalic, and some are quite sweet.
I wouldn’t say this material is going to be super strong – it’s very subtle. But, when you read about perfumes, it says ambergris smells salty. That’s because the commonality among all the different pieces of Ambergris is Ambroxide and ambrien…it’s the ambox, which gives that sweet saltiness.
The key thing all ambers including ambergris have in common is saltiness.
Now, what I tried to do with Quintessentially Amber was to create a composition that balances and encompasses all the different types of amber, from French-style Amber to Middle Eastern Amber, Far Eastern Amber, and ambergris. I went for all the varieties and tried to find the perfect balance. So, Quintessentially Amber is a balancing play of all of them all together.
I also wanted to create the amber that even a person who doesn’t like amber will hopefully enjoy.
And the beautiful thing about Quintessentially Amber is it’s great for layering. Quintessentially Amber is also one of the highest concentrations. All 4 perfumes are over 20%, but this one is nearly 40% of the compound.
I did that because I wanted people to really go: “Damn! Yeah… this is it!”
HOW DO YOU SPELL “PERFUMER”?
Sultan Pasha
- There was a gentleman, I believe, from Serbia. He came to the counter today. He asked me: “What would you say is key to learning perfuming?”
I said to him, the key is, of course, passion. You need to be passionate. And passionate to learn.
The easiest description I can give is, when a toddler learns to talk: Be it English, be it Romanian – do they learn to spell the word, or do they learn a word first?
They of course learn the words first…. Much later on, they learn how to spell the words”.
It’s the same way in perfumery; the key to starting is to use your passion, learn what an actual rose absolute smells like, what an actual rose essential oil smells like, and understand the differences between the essential oil and the absolute, as well as the differences between the various species of roses. So, rosa centifolia, rosa damascena, rosa alba.
Learn about the different vetivers, different jasmines, different sandalwoods, etc. That’s what I did.
And then, eventually, came a point where I wanted to go even deeper. I wanted to truly understand what it takes to create the word “rose”. How do you spell the word rose as a perfumer?
The speaker
- How do you spell it?
Sultan Pasha
- The way to spell it is by studying the molecules found in a rose…. You study each one of the molecules: phenyl ethyl alcohol, phenylacetaldehyde, rose oxide, different damascones, etc etc et… there are so many. It takes a lot of molecules to create an actual rose and each variety or cultivar of rose is very different from each other….its incredibly complex but when yo are so passionate it doesn’t feel so complex ..So, you go deeper into this complexity without even realising as you are so enamoured and passionate about the art!
That’s a journey I took.
And then I created Shadi, the fragrance for my children’s mother. And then, the rest is history.
ON THE FUTURE, THE NICHE AND THE PERFUME FAMILY
The speaker
- We had this chat last night. We just bumped into each other. But I wanted to know, because you’ve been in the industry for a while now, and the niche perfume industry, where do you see it going in the next five years? And what trends? And what do you think will be the driver?
Elena Cvjetković
- That’s a question many people have been asking lately. Is niche dead? You know, even more brutally, Sultan and I were actually talking last night. We’ve said that conventions like this, places like this, it is only fair for the people sharing their knowledge and telling the truth. Is niche dead? Where is the niche going?
I don’t think it’s going anywhere. I think it’s going to stay. But, you know, everything moves. Everything develops. Everything changes. Trends come. Trends go. Project brands come. Massive brands come and go. New brands are coming out in the market. Some brands are disappearing from the market. Things are constantly changing…
But do we have niches within the niche? Well, we can discuss it. I don’t accept the term ‘ultra-niche,’ which has recently become very popular. There’s no such thing as an “ultra-niche”.
You know, one person says it, then everybody else repeats it, and suddenly it becomes a trendy word which describes nothing. You have artisan perfumes within the niche, and other different subgroups, right?
But the niche is a niche.
So, what will happen? We shall see. When some already established niche brands were starting out, it wasn’t that easy to start your own brand. It costs money. It took enormous effort. It requires an enormous effort, even now.
Sultan Pasha
- Today, everybody can have a niche brand. It’s accessible. And I love that! Let us see creative people. Let us see people telling their stories with their perfumes. It’s what we say here – let’s talk about perfume! Let’s see… There will be some great ones.
However, the problem I see is saturation in physical shops and the market. The space, the physical space, is limited: a physical shop, a physical retailer, or distributor can only take that many perfumes, right? So, I think the brand should consider in this already somewhat saturated market what’s their unique selling point….
Everybody thinks about the product. Everybody thinks about price. Everybody thinks about promotion. Promotion is getting us, you know, you have to scream to be noticed. It’s getting more and more interesting.
I’m extremely proud of Flavius for what he has done and achieved… the fact that he is doing workshops and supporting these promising young perfumers to present their work in here is absolutely incredible and inspiring. It’s highly commendable
Elena Cvjetković
- Yes, I am extremely proud of him for doing that because that encourages the future generation… New generation. It keeps the niche alive.
Sultan Pasha
- And I believe it’s something that should be done in other fairs as well. But, unfortunately, people are…
Speaker
- … Not like Flavius. (laugh)
Sultan Pasha
- … Businesses are not as generous and supportive as Flavius. So, for me, coming to Romania, coming to Art Niche Expo and seeing the Workshop was a bravo to him! And well done: “Keep on doing what you’re doing!” I really mean it.
Danu Seth Fyr
- It’s like Thomas de Monaco taking on his latest collection. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the brand, but for his latest collection, he enlisted three new and unkrown perfumers and gave them the creative freedom to create… So, that’s important, I think. The spirit.
Elena Cvjetković
- Maybe I’m being romantic, but if you notice, as the best part of every fair, event, or perfume convention, I see sharing. I see caring.
I see brands working together. I see perfumers; I see brand owners, like some of Sultan’s friends – they are not the competition! They’re joining forces, actually working together to create something new! That’s beautiful… But, you know, there aren’t many safe places…
Sultan Pasha
- Because, in actuality, unfortunately, that is the way this industry is, especially when it comes to commercial perfumery. It can be cruelly arrogant and conservative.
So, when it comes to niche perfumers, as Elena kindly said, especially when you go to these fairs in Milan or in Florence, you see that we’re gathered together. Because we’re like a family and we help each other out. And that’s very important.
So thank you, new members and old members of our perfume family. Thank you so much. Thank you…. Oh, what are you doing? (smiles)
Anjam Haling
- …. I thought we could get a group picture together. I think everybody wants to get in there…
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